|
Post by Andreina on Aug 8, 2011 8:54:06 GMT -5
I am looking for advice on leash walking during this trying time of my 4 month old ignoring me. We don't start ob class until the 24th so I need advice before that to avoid it getting worse! I use to alternate between long line and 6' leash but now I am mostly working on the 6'. We go for 4 walks a day, about 20 mins in length (2 of those walks include a play session in the field with a toy.) Sometimes I throw the ball in the back yard for a bit to burn some energy first if I know she's high strung already. I don't want a high strung dog walking because she is too excitable to concentrate. Anyways, for the past 2 weeks she's been doing really good *kind of* starting to get the hang of heeling and sitting when I stop, etc. But it seems like something possessed her lately and she just wants to pull any where but where I am going. I bring treats with me and praise her when she looks back at me and stops pulling, or when I catch her walking nice by my side. It's not enough though, and she is getting strong!! There is nothing I can do to grab her attention, even if I stop, try luring her with a treat to look at me, call her name, etc. I've tried changing directions, which works for all of 10 feet and then it's back to her walking me. God forbid we encounter a squirrel, chipmunk or bird - I'm in trouble! She literally just wants to ignore me sometimes like I'm not even there. To Scarlet, she is just walking herself apparently and feels the need not to listen. She also has this annoying habit of grabbing the slack of the leash with her mouth like she IS walking herself and thrashing it around like her wubba! Don't get me wrong she has her good days, and I know SHE KNOWS how to walk properly she is just damn stubborn most of the time. Did your pups pull or were they generally good at walking? If so, how did you change this behaviour? Do you recommend a specific type of collar? Right now we have a martingale on, I don't know if the collar is the issue and we should switch to flat buckle..
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Aug 8, 2011 9:23:00 GMT -5
Welcome to Doberteens club They all do it. She may pull more when she hits the real teens between 6 and 8 months. Here is what we do: - Changing directions. She needs to understand if she pulls no way to move forward. It takes too much time but that's the only way to break their stubborness. We walk 1 step forward 3 steps back. It takes for ever to get to off leash park! - Training with treats. You have to keep the leash in your right hand and treats in your left hand. Your hand with treats should be above Scarlet's nose and 5-10 cm away from your body and a little ahead. Try to walk squares and loops. She should not lean on you. Give her a treat after she does nice heeling. As usual I stop and praise her and give her a treat. Don't bribe her (too much treats and too often). Don't let her nip on treats while she is healing. I hope others will share their experience. Heeling is tough with puppies!
|
|
|
Post by Andreina on Aug 8, 2011 9:36:12 GMT -5
Thanks Lisa great advice! I hope other will chime in too...
She is testing me for sure.
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Aug 8, 2011 9:44:36 GMT -5
I don't use a training choke before my puppy is 6 months old. Martingale collar may work for Scarlet with a quick pop ups.
|
|
|
Post by toyzshopgary on Aug 8, 2011 10:50:21 GMT -5
I think martingale is really the only correction collar at that age. As she is older a choke and even older for stubborn dogs a prong but she's way to young for that now.
Zeus has never been food motivated so treat training here is not good, praise works better for him or his toys like a tossball or his wubba kong is probably the best motivator.
I think as you get in your puppy classes they will probably have you working on focus. I didn't see why it was so important at the time but 2 years later I do see why. I've also seen a girl Monica and I know who is a Schz person and pretty amazing watching her walk, stop, turn etc and the dog is 100% focused on her and what she is doing and responsing to her.
I can tell you something this week I've done that has made a BIG difference and Zeus is 3 years old in Nov so different situation but you might try it and see.
Basically Lisa's stuff is great you should use that as a baseline but it sounds like your biggest issue is Scarlet is starting to ignore you and in doing so she's going for a walk and could care less what you are doing or focusing on what you are doing.
I tried multiple times in the last couple years with Zeus to walk with a choke chain and a 6' lead and have the chain and lead loose and him heal beside me. There were days he would have no part and some he was ok. Now I'm talking an older dog here and you can't do that with Scarlet at her age but I had good success with a prong collar and an old neck collar looped through it as a handle with our previous doberman so I started to use it with this guy Zeus III.
It works well but it's still a crutch as he should be focusing more on me. Anyway this last week I'm in retraining mode for Zeus and for me and I decided to go back to the choke and 6' lead and basically what Lisa is saying of corrections, stop, change speed change directions and I saw Monica doing something with Zeus at the UKC to get his focus where she was more or less slightly walking into him left.........I remembered watching Caesar Milan on TV doing something similar with raising his foot and touching the dogs hips, not a kick just touching and same with his hand and the noise he makes.
So I started again with the choke loose and the 6' lead loose and as Zeus moved out I would stop or slow...he really wasn't paying attention so I just touched his hip with my inside foot........well holy crap he jumped and looked at me what the heck dad! I said heel and he did and a good boy and kept going. I probably did it about 3-4 times in the 1st few blocks and he got the message and was watching me. So that's been all week at least 1 - 3 mile walk a day and some days 2 of those walks and it's been an amazing transformation, now I just slow if he's stepping out too much but for the most part he's healing good and the choke is loose and the lead and no tugging.
Monica also has me on some training stuff and part of it is walking 5 or so steps forward in a heal and then taking big military steps left and then right. It makes Zeus focus on what I'm doing and this has been a few days I'm doing Monica's stuff.
This has been the 1st time in 2 3/4 years walking Zeus I could do it as long for time and as much distance with a choke and loose leash all loose.
I know for D.O.G II and the tight walking and close conditions of Bloor street I'll probably still have him on the prong and collar handle but I'll try the choke and 6' lead and see. It's still a work in progress for us.
I think it's a focus thing with Scarlett from what you are saying. Puppy class wiill help you for sure and when they are shoing you how to get the dog focused on you beleive me it's important. I didn't see it then but over 2 years later I do. Lisa has some great points and maybe try my foot tap when she's taking off and pulling and not responding to any correction or speed change or change of direction.
Now I also summarize by saying I'm far from any expert dog trainer and make lots of mistakes like many owners but for us the combo of Monica's retraining of me and her things, the foot tap for focus and then just slight corrections or speed changes and checking to see Zeus has some focus on me seems to work pretty good so far. I think it tires him more as besides the walking exercise, it's stimulating his brain to start to focus on me. Just taking baby steps here and so far so good.
|
|
|
Post by Andreina on Aug 8, 2011 11:51:30 GMT -5
Definitely not even thinking about prong or choke collars right now. I really like the martingale as opposed to flat nylon.
Good advice Gary, I will try those exercises in our back yard to limit distractions right now. I'm getting Julian to start it this afternoon while I'm at work!
We've done puppy class, worked on focus with the "watch me" exercise and she gets treated when she makes eye contact with me. We do a lot of focus exercises daily, wether it be with fetch or jus some short drills of watch me, stay and sit type thing. This is why it's so frustrating because I know she knows how to walk and watch me, she is just rebelling right now. I don't want her to get any ideas that she can run the show here. She is very food motivated, but recently in the walking scenario, it's like "whatever mom I want that squirrel not that treat"
I think I just need to take a step back and bring her back to the basics and show her what I expect. It is hard sometimes to evaluate your mistakes until someone else can critique your handling. This advice is really helping me consider new approaches guys thanks. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Aug 8, 2011 12:31:16 GMT -5
Good point Gary. Training the focus is very important but you can not succeed much with a puppy yet. Food in my hand does it slowly.
Adreina what does work better for Scarlet food or toys? I was using toys training Gino. He cares less about food. Asha is very food driven and she is hard to manage with toys (yet). We are learning "MINE" command now to harness her high drive.
That's a good idea to touch the dog hip or just pinch the back/hips. That's what my trainer does if Asha doesn't obey.
|
|
|
Post by Andreina on Aug 8, 2011 12:40:24 GMT -5
Lisa, Scarlet works best with food. Toys do not capture her focus in training. She has a very high drive that is starting to really come out in her, she needs a hobby! I am having trouble deciding what to do with her though and how to keep her entertained for countless hours each day. It's like it's never enough, she has definitely become a very active little one with lots of spunk. She is way to young to start thinking about agility, I won't do that until after 1 year old. I was thinking Schutzhund, but I'm going to be honest I don't know that I have that much free time to commit to the hardcore training of it. I would like to see her get involved in something though soon enough, I just don't know what. And like I said, she gets exercised multiple times a day, believe me. I don't remember what free time means lol. She needs a challenge, and I can't figure out what to provide? Any suggestions lol She paces the house sometimes, searching for something to occupy her... After a long walk, play and training drills. Like girl, aren't you tired yet!!
|
|
|
Post by toyzshopgary on Aug 8, 2011 13:41:12 GMT -5
Maybe it can be something as simple as a next level obedience class beyond puppy? Most places that offer puppy offer the next level of obedience. It sounds like you have the basics started just build on them and it sounds so easy but I know what you mean. Just doing a couple good walks a day with Zeus is about 2 hours. Monica said something to me last week though about challenging the dogs brain as oposed to just walks and it's so simple yet so easy to not do and just grab the lead and go walk. Like I said Gary's being retrained and trying to rethink, so you are also helping me rethink. She's still young but what about thinking of working towards a CKC CGN test at some point? It's all basic stuff but it gives you a training goal to shoot for and it's all pretty basic things. www.ckc.ca/en/portals/0/pdf/Other/CGN%2012%20Steps.pdfwww.ckc.ca/en/Default.aspx?tabid=91Zeus did his last year, he would have been 20 months old when he did it. So it's still a ways for Scarlet but something to think about and work towards and it's a title she would have for life too. Just a thought that could bring more purpose to your training sessions.
|
|
|
Post by Andreina on Aug 8, 2011 14:12:12 GMT -5
Yeah for sure Gary! We start our next level obedience on the 25th... That's the next available class I could get into after checking out numerous facilities. I think we're really gonna like this one, it has 3 different levels of ob, as well as separate focus training classes, fetch, etc and agility maybe down the road there too. I don't want to put off working with her though and wait for this class. I have got to keep her mind still learning even though we are on a long break between classes. CGN something I want her to do for sure, probably next year. I have the description sheet printed off of the 10 exercises in the test, and we will definitely work towards it. (I am a crazy organized type A person if you haven't noticed by now) LOL. You're right though, she is still very young, I just want to instil good obedience in her from the beginning. ;D She needs to be a good Dobereich ambassador you know!! Hey maybe you can give me some more tips next weekend when I see you at DOG II! ;D
|
|
|
Post by Lisa on Aug 8, 2011 15:06:47 GMT -5
I will share my bad experience with you. Gino is from Euro lines and he has good drive and focus. I decided to train him in Schutzhund. We took puppy and basic obedience classes with one of Schutzhund trainers. Then she went on maternity leave. We were not able to move to advance classes. Also when Gino was matured enough to start real training guys from the club told me they didn't take new members anymore. Bump! My boy became a perfect pet but he could have done much better.
I decided to contact Schutzhund club when Asha was a baby... the same answer she was too young. Then..."we don't take new members". Geezzz...
I found a terrific Utility trainer. Asha and me truly enjoy her classes. My girl is doing very well. Schutzhund club may become available in the future and we will continue there.
Have you been at Utility competition? That's really cool.
Before you make a decision think about your long-term plan. Check their agility classes. Look if you like it. Compare to other obedience schools, etc. It may help not to "hit the wall" like I did with my Gino.
|
|
|
Post by Andreina on Aug 8, 2011 16:40:13 GMT -5
Yeah we will check out every thing we can and view classes. The main idea is that Scarlet will excel in whatever she does and it is fun for her. I truly don't think right now it would be fair to do Sch or anything with her as I can't commit fully. I would like to check out tracking or something, but can't find anywhere locally that does just tracking, you have to go to a sch club and do all 3 areas.
Agility, I've gotta wait until her legs and hips can handle all that running I don't want to start her to soon and injure her. My trainer invited me to come watch an intro to agility class for puppies around Scarlets age. It involves no jumping, and weaves, it's just like puppy gymnastics I guess you could say. It sounds so dumb I know lol, but it would get her familiar with the equipment and give me an idea if she would like that kind of thing. She sets her mind to something and you bet she's getting it done. Hey remember Lisa when you saw Scarlets baby photo I posted a while ago? from when Monica was doing the sitting and stacked shots, you told me she had lots of drive in her eyes! Now I know what you mean, such determination in that little body of hers! lol.
|
|
|
Post by dobermoms on Aug 8, 2011 19:35:27 GMT -5
Ah, the puppy stage. FRUSTRATING! lol Especially the walking. I take Dante for a walk...practice sit, stay for 2 minutes, heel, turns, and then I take HER! AUGHHHHHHHHHH....OMG it is awful. She pushs my patience, that's for sure. I think it took us 20 minutes to walk 50 feet correctly. It was exhausting. But believe me it will only get better....with a lot more time. We don't try to over due it with her either....if she is doing good for 10-15 minutes, then lots of praise and then we "free" her and then play with her to get her really excited so it stays fun for her. If you can do this a couple more times each day, then eventually she will get better. But don't look to the near future for perfection. Monica has hinted to us that we have another year of training before we will have her where we would like her. Just when you think that all is going good, they hit the 9-12 month(I think that's the age) where they forget everything that they learned. Now let me tell you that wasn't fun with Dante.
We also played hide and seek with Dante when he was younger....hid a toy with food in it...make her sit first without moving.....that may take a while, but she will catch on....be patient.....and then free her and let her find it....keep it easy at first...the mental stimulation will help to tire her. Plus it is good obedience training.
|
|
|
Post by Andreina on Aug 9, 2011 8:14:04 GMT -5
Hey hide and seek is a good idea, she is getting really good at holding her sits and downs so maybe we can start that now. She did really well last night with focus games too I was happy. We did a 30 second - 1 min sit stay and focus on me the whole time and then go fetch, drop it and repeat. See, she's a smart girl, she just decides to ignore me sometimes. I didn't know doberteens were this soon!
|
|
|
Post by toyzshopgary on Aug 9, 2011 10:03:39 GMT -5
Hey hide and seek is a good idea, she is getting really good at holding her sits and downs so maybe we can start that now. She did really well last night with focus games too I was happy. We did a 30 second - 1 min sit stay and focus on me the whole time and then go fetch, drop it and repeat. See, she's a smart girl, she just decides to ignore me sometimes. I didn't know doberteens were this soon! Sounds like maybe you will be teaching me at D.O.G II!!! I'm at a point with Zeus I need to look at something more and work his brain more. Schuz would be awesome but clubs are not taking members and I know I would have time conflicts vs the weekly time required. Fellow D.O.G members you are all inspiring me to look, find, explore options and do more., what?? not sure, but I have to start the journey looking. Good discussion topic this weekend when we all meet.
|
|