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Post by dobermoms on Jan 21, 2013 6:30:16 GMT -5
For most of us dog owners, this day will come when the decision is made to have our dogs neutered/spayed. For some it has come already.....and while it is a myth, those owners who have had their dogs "altered" beleive that they no longer have the desire/capability to remember what it was like to be " a fertile dog"...making excuses like "they've been fixed so the interest is gone". They couldn't be more WRONG!!! It is not gone! They can still go thru the entire act with another dog...flirting, licking, eventually penetration--locking. They only thing missing is the opportunity for the female to become pregnant. That's correct. So, if you were told that having your dog neutered or spayed changed their desire to perform, you have been mislead.
If you were at training yesterday, you would have experienced this first hand with a neutered male and an in-heat female. He was trying EVERYTHING to "win" her attention. He acted no different than an in-tact male would have acted towards the female...only difference is he was shooting blanks. No matter to him though....he was a determined male. So, just thought I would share this so that if anyone ever thought that neutering a male would remove his natural instincts, or if you have been told that it would, you have been given incorrect information.
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Post by frank1982 on Jan 21, 2013 7:52:06 GMT -5
Wow that seems strange to me, we got Argo neutered specifically because he was going crazy for Asia when she was in heat! They had to be kept separate, and he would do anything and everything to get to her... Now he has me neutered for a couple years and Asia is in heat right now and you would never know it by Argo... Lol they still sleep in the room with us, there is actually no difference on or off heat now. Argo actually marks his "territory" a lot less now, when you take him on a walk he really doesn't even seem to be interested on peeing on every tree. I have found neutering to make a huge difference overall. I suppose it really just means that every dog takes it a little different...
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Post by Dobereich on Jan 21, 2013 7:58:06 GMT -5
HaHa, I'm sort of glad that you posted that, and that the pet owners involved saw first hand that a neutered male can and will cover a female if given the chance. Not all will, but some will. Some argue that the males that mount were neutered too late. or that they were allowed to breed before they were castrated. But this is not true, as the male mentioned in training class is only 9 months old. Many years ago I had a 14 month old neutered male here. He mounter and tied with one of my females that were in season. He was neutered prior to 8 months of age and never bred a female before. So yes, neutered males can be distracted by females in season, and some as much as an intact male would be. But thats yet another myth. People neuter their males sometimes because they believe it will curb their desire to run off the property to find a female. I've own intact males all my life, the only male I ever had leave my property was our neutered Boxer who would go next door the very odd time when the neighbours dog would come calling. At least the one good ting about neutering is that your boys won't bring any pregnant females home...lol.
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Post by hooligan on Jan 21, 2013 12:19:48 GMT -5
I imagine that it depends on the dog, but I've never found that neutering has made much difference in my male dogs' behaviour. I remember visiting friends with our previous Dobe, who was neutered, and watching him successfully mount their bitch. He also continued to mark and to be occasionally reactive with certain other dogs, usually males — neutered or unneutered, it made no difference to him (standard poodles, male or female, were a favourite target). The one area where it did make a difference was his occasional tendency to . . . hmmm, how can I put this delicately? . . . lick himself until he sprayed. Fortunately, this didn't happen often, but the behaviour pretty much disappeared after he was neutered.
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Post by Andreina on Jan 21, 2013 12:39:36 GMT -5
Does neutering a male lessen the male/male aggression behavior? I've always wondered if it has more to do with their testosterone or depends on the dogs temperament... Interesting topic!!
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Post by frank1982 on Jan 21, 2013 12:54:41 GMT -5
Yes hooligan! I totally forgot that it got rid of the licking! Lol
I personally found that it lowered Argos tendency to try to try to take alpha position... Not that he did it with me, but it really helped with my wife.
Argos never been dog aggressive so I'm not sure if it helps that, but if spaying would help Asia be less dog aggressive that would be great! Lol
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Post by Dobereich on Jan 21, 2013 16:33:19 GMT -5
Spaying a bitch before their first heat is more likely to increase aggression. Spaying after a heat will likely do very litter to change their over-all attitude towards other dogs. However, it will definitely affect their bitchiness towards them on either side of her fertile cycle. Females can be very edgy with other dogs before and after their heat, as its their way of saying that they are not fertile, so back off! But the female's tendencies can have other relevant factors that influence her behaviour. I find spaying to have much less positive effects on a female, then what we expect them to have when neutering a male.
Neutering a male does tend to take the edge off the effects of testosterone. But as Dyanne mentioned, I also have not noticed much of a difference after neutering... at least certainly not the miracle cure for all things male that most tend to believe. There is however a very small percentage of dogs that are overly hormone sensitive, and those are the dogs that should be neutered, and who show almost a miraculous transformation.
One of my client's males was 1 of the few who truly benefited from being neutered. Initially this male was raised to believe that he was king of everything. Not crate trained, always calling the shots, hardly ever left alone, never pushed beyond what he wanted to do (because he was a good dog and did most everything the owners wanted anyhow). Then he started to show less and less tolerance and more reaction.
It took awhile for the owners to get on board with dethroning this male, so it took a bit longer to see what was really going on. After careful consideration I recommended that the dog be neutered. The turn around was as close to immediate as I've ever seen, and I've worked with hundreds of male dogs. Now after the fact I hear the dog is still dominant in some ways (still the king of the household where the owners are concerned). But in this case the neuter was the cure for his over-reactive tendencies.
Neutering doesn't correct learned behaviours. All it does is remove the male's ability to reproduce, and it will provide fluid control with males that tend to relieve themselves, or have heavy discharge. But one should only expect physical changes, they should not expect behavioural correction. The case I mentioned with the clients dog was one of less then 10% of males that are truly hormonally over-stimulated. Comparatively, that male would be the small wiry guy at the bar that picks fights with everyone and hits on all the girls. Thankfully not all men act that way.... perhaps we could think of neutering the ones that do... rotflmao.
Male to male aggression is also not always affected by hormones. Male dobes are not noted to be great with other large breed males, because dobes are socially dominant. They arrive at the park in a high position, head up, standing tall and saying "I've arrived". When they meet with another male who accepts the lower position, the play is on. But the moment that other males asserts himself, its game over.
But as some might remember, there was a goofy playful intact Jack at the picnic in Sept who was quite interested in playing with other males. Rhody also, at 8 years of age and a stud male. Pictures of him and his great-grandson Blade show that he too is a gentle intact male. So being intact doesn't always alter a male's tolerance to another male. But bring in competition and it will be a fight, and if one male tries to get the drop on the other, it will turn into battle at the drop of a dime.
Frank, remember Argos and Bogey. They wanted to play, then one would jump on the other's back and it was game over. That can happen if the male is neutered or not.
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Post by Andreina on Jan 21, 2013 19:25:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply Monica, I find learning about dog behaviours very interesting... and especially yesterday in training when you were explaining the connection our dogs have with us, how they read us, the anticipation of our body language, etc... Really good to know. This is certainly an amazing, and observant breed...
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Post by nzelic01 on Jan 21, 2013 20:18:22 GMT -5
I would also like to offer our experience at home having a male and female - first hand experience here that a dog that was neutered at 5-6 months still knows to have relations with a female We always wondered if Zeus would mount Porscha when she went into heat. He was neutered at 5-6 months old and never humped before (only out of dominance and we always intervened). He was never really interested in other females in such a way so we always thought that we nipped him too soon and that he wont care....well in december he proved us wrong. He always only tolerated Porscha - never really liked her since we got her but since she went into heat they are best buddies now. I never thought this would happen. Also, we thought that nipping him would calm him down, and change his personality because the vet told us so (we didnt know better, he was our first dog) and that was not the case either. He was still the same - like nothing ever happened. He is naturally very dominant and as Monica made a point that when he goes around other dogs he acts as if he needs all the dogs to know that the king has arrived. Its funny to observe but because of that he may bully other dogs and we are always there to intervene. And if he wins the toy - he prances around and does this "victory lap" as we always joke. He can get along with other dogs very well as long as they dont challenge him - if they try to mount him, game over....he will put them in their place. He has never actually "hurt" a dog, just warns them (it always looks worse then it is) Like i said - we thought neutering would change him but it did nothing to change him. He was stubborn and dominant from day 1 that we got him (I swear he picked up on my husbands personality lol)
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Post by dobermoms on Jan 22, 2013 22:01:43 GMT -5
Well this has certainly been an interesting thread to follow. I agree with what Andreina said about learning more about the dogs behavior, and how they read us as their pack leaders.....or what I'd like Kazi to look to me as. LOL.
When it comes time for Dante and Kerrie to walk this path together, I can assure you that Kazi and I will have packed a bag for the weekend and we will head up to visit Susan and Quin.....far enough away that we won't hear the OOWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEE......
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Post by junosbionictale on Mar 1, 2013 21:00:08 GMT -5
Monica, Juno is spayed, and frankly every dog I've ever had has been spayed. Previously you posted a bit about spaying before or after the first heat. I have always been taught and always believed if you are going to spay a female dog it should not be until after the first heat. I know all dogs are different and every owner plays a part in the behaviour, or misbehavoiur of their dog. Juno was a sweetheart before we got her, Isi we waited till after her first heat, much to my wife's disgust and dismay, but she was ulitimately the sweetest dog ever. I could go on and on naming dogs etc., but my question is should you or should you not wait till after the first heat. Many vets we have visted in the past went on and on about how quickly dogs can be spayed nowadays. I've always believed that physically and social-emotionally/behavourally it shouldn't be done until after the first heat because the dog is not "mature". One of the reasons we like our vet so much is she is of the same mind and always supported our decision to wait.
What do you believe? I probably won't be swayed from waiting until after the first heat cycle for any future dogs, but it is something I've always wondered about and like I've said many vets push to get the spay done earlier and earlier nowadays some even claiming it will save you money on the licence (not after a $400 spay bill it won't). I've always paid for the intact dog licence for a year and then spayed them it works for me.
Everyone else can weigh in too, I just addressed this to Monica because I am curious about her opinion.
Martin
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Post by dobermoms on Mar 2, 2013 0:20:34 GMT -5
Hi Martin
I think I know what Monica will say...but I'm NOT speaking on her behalf...just to clarify. She has always said, for females, to wait until the female has had "at least" 2 heats. There are many reasons for this: incontinence when the dog is older, co-relation to tearing muscles--ACL, physically mature. That's all I can remember immediately....and a male, well why bother. At the very least, I would wait 3 years...but that is just a guideline. It is so much easier with an intact male, and usually any issues people have with their males is "not" related to "them"....LOL
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Post by Lisa on Mar 2, 2013 18:51:15 GMT -5
I have two intact dogs. Gino has never hump Asha when she was in heat but he loves to hump his doggy boyfriend! Go figure....
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Post by dobermoms on Mar 3, 2013 10:05:22 GMT -5
Hahaha.....Gino KNOWS better than to try to hump Asha! Smart boy! It would be an embarrassing ending for him if he did....lol
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Post by Lisa on Mar 3, 2013 10:54:45 GMT -5
LOL Barb... that's so much true.
The bottom line is... We have no problems to own two intact dogs and we are not planning to have puppies.
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