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Post by Lisa on Aug 13, 2011 15:20:32 GMT -5
I copied it from DC: www.doberman-chat.com/community/index.php?threads/choke-chains-and-neck-problems.10971/"A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany: * 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong. * The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed. * Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma. * Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma. The numbers seem to speak for themselves. (Information about above study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar) Here is the rest of the info from this particular quote and it is some interesting reading. cobankopegi.com/prong.html" ---------------------------------------------------- I didn't know it. After I read it I talked to my trainer. She also thinks that pinch/prong collar is much safer and works better. Jackie trains her dogs to wear prong collars when they are babies. I am learning how to use it. Quick pop ups work the best. I don't allow Asha to pull wearing it. It works! I use a martindale collar and flexi leash when we are hiking. I was using choke chain to take my dogs for short walks to our vet or shopping. No more choke chains for us.
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Post by toyzshopgary on Aug 13, 2011 15:38:23 GMT -5
Interesting stuff lisa. I have used a prong and collar looped for a handle for Zeus for quite a while and did it with Zeus II most of his life.
I think having used one so long they are somewhat of a crutch instead of making the dog walk properly loose leash and collar/choke chain.
You can ask Joanne, Lana they have seen Zeus on the prong and it tight quarters and I always get complements ..Holy cow he walsk amazing BUT IMO it's a crutch to making him walk like he should. I've been going on 2 weeks now I just forced myself to switch back to a 6' leather lead and a choke and get him to walk loose leash. I bundle the leather lead in my hand with about 4" hanging and it's a big choke so it tends to dangle and be really loose if he is really good.
The 1st time starting he was brutal, then he started to come around. I mentioned about tapping his hip with my foot for attention but he's vastly improved on that rig.
Today there is a big festival in Grimsby with the main street closed off bands playing at each end etc so I figured good test to see in the people and some dogs etc and tighter quarters how he would be with the loose lead choke. I went all through town and he was really quite good impressed the heck out of me. It was a pretest for D.O.G II tomorrow. At my turnaround I decided to use the prong and collar handle and go back through everything, He actually walked more casual when I wasn't using the prong. I stopped after going through town and prong off and choke and loose lead back. Took about a block or so a couple stops and lighht corrections and he was back good again.
Now we walked for close to 1 1/2 hours and I'm guessing it would be over 4 miles and maybe almost 5. So he was worn out too coming back.
I know a good correction or 2 with a prong and the dog learns very fast not to pull and pay more attention. The choke it's not as quick they learn. At least my thoughts with Zeus II and Zeus III.
I'm trying to slowly get away from the prong 100% and go to the choke and loose lead 90%. I watch obedience no prongs, CGN test no prongs allowed , dog shows I understand no prongs allowed on the grounds etc. I know again they help for sure but from my experience they are a crutch. I'm glad I just decided recently to make the switch and push more to not always use the prong because it's easy.
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Post by Lisa on Aug 13, 2011 15:52:11 GMT -5
Gary you trained Zeus with a prong and it was successful. If he walks nice on the loose leash he doesn't need prong anymore. I guess he doesn't need choke either We use prong for training. I hope we will get as good results as you did and Asha will heel on the loose leash soon. Prong/choke is not allowed in the obedience ring. Dogs should be able to heel without leash. IF choke is used correctly for quick pop ups it's OK... but not many people know how to use it. Choke is not good for puppies. It's not effective and may damage their necks. They pull a lot.
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Post by hooligan on Aug 13, 2011 17:03:28 GMT -5
As I recall, we started Jack on a prong when he was about 6 months old. Before that, it was a martingale, which is what he wears around the house. I'm not a fan of chokes, though he does wear one for training -- nearly always hooked up to the dead ring, though.
One reason I don't like chokes is because I have never learned how to make an effective pop correction even after doing several levels of CKC obedience with our previous guy, Fred. I just couldn't get the hang of it. Someone recently mentioned that the CKC is rethinking (has rethought?) the ban on prongs at shows, etc., but I don't know any more than This. Will try to remember to find out more next time I see this person.
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Post by Dobereich on Aug 14, 2011 0:41:18 GMT -5
A well behaved heel is more about you and your level of skill then it is about the type of collar used. But the collar is to be an asset to assist you in speaking to your dog. The problem is that most people don't know how to deliver a well-timed directional lead, with any of the collars mentioned below.
There has been a lot of misconceptions about the prong collar being excessive, etc. It delivers a more effective correction, but with less trauma to the neck. However, this correction can be too much for some dogs that are touch sensitive. You cannot say that one collar is the end all and be all and this is the way to go, etc. Some dogs can be trained well with a flat collar, others a prong, while others work best with a slip chain (as you folks are referring to as a choke).
The slip chain is small in diameter and if that gets wrenched around the dog's neck, yanking and yanking and pulling, it certainly can cause damage. Dogs that need more stimulation are the ones at risk of over-correction and injury. These dogs do better on a prong.
The prong is a very effective training tool for the dog that can tolerate that level of stimulation. However if its not fitted correctly it can cause thickening of the skin, staph infections, scabs and punctures. It can be too much stimulation for the more sensitive dogs, which is counter productive at best. Continuing to use this level of correction of a dog that doesn't need it will over-subdue the dog, leaving them lagging behind with their spirits crushed.
Flat collars are for trained dogs for most part. Just because there is no squeezing like we can get from a chain, doesn't mean that there isn't trauma to the neck with the constant tugging and yanking. The diameter is wider, so there is less trauma to a concentrated area, but there is still damage that can be done with a flat collar.
I completely HATE head halti's or anything of the likes. The constant repetitive jerking to the side leaves high risk for disk damage over time. It also wears the hair down on the shorter haired dogs and can leave a permanent scar across the muzzle.
Times when prongs and halti's are good... when used by owners who cannot time their corrections properly, or who are extremely out muscled by their dog. A 100 pound dog with a 90 pound owner for example. There is no timing required really with these as the dog will inevitably correct themselves as they reach the end of their leash, etc.
Teaching your dog to heel is more a matter of teaching them to respect your leadership. They should be watching you, and you them. There shouldn't be a need for several yanks and tugs on the chain, and if there is, you have to see the problem were it is.... that your dog is not respecting you're lead.
I want to be careful here in recommending any collar to someone to use with their dog in training without evaluating the dog and owner, and seeing them in action. Heeling is one thing that most people have problems with when they approach me for training. I will go through several collars until I find the one that is best for handler and dog alike. This is why people should consult a trainer on the matter of what collar is best for their dog.
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Post by toyzshopgary on Aug 15, 2011 10:49:27 GMT -5
Great read Monica!
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Post by ladydon on Aug 15, 2011 15:09:44 GMT -5
I've only used a prong on Diesel since it was recommended to me by my trainer and it helped me a lot since he used to pull. I only use it for training and walking...less on training now since he understands his commands better. Just when Reyna is concerned...I'd rather let them off leash since he can't seem to sit still with her around.
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Post by Lisa on Aug 15, 2011 15:10:33 GMT -5
Excellent post Monica! I used a regular collar on Gino and it was enough. The choke doesn't work for Asha. The prong works like a magic. She is a different dog wearing it. I use quick pops only. After reading your post I will watch for any scars or staph. I don't put any continuous pressure it should be fine.
Yes I have a problem with leadership now. Asha is a stubborn girl and tends to shut down when I put the pressure. We are training her for Utility. If I don't find the way to train her we won't succeed.
What are your suggestions Monica to establish the good leadership with a dog?
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Post by dobermoms on Aug 15, 2011 21:09:33 GMT -5
Great read Monica.
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