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Post by dobereyna on Oct 21, 2011 20:21:43 GMT -5
Reyna has started something relatively 'new' in the last few weeks... here are the circumstances:
- mark drops her off at doggie daycare and she barks at anyone that walks past as they are walking in, or anyone who enters when she is in the reception area -she also barks at anyone who enters the daycare when she is being picked up -she went crazy barking at a little fluffy white (quiet) dog the other night who was coming into our apartment building with their owner (we had never seen them before). she wouldn't stop and even turned around after we walked away to go right up to this little thing and bark in it's face -she barked at people in the hallway today that she has never barked at before
it's not a little bark... it's a BIG one, hair on the back of her neck UP, back legs our in her stance, etc... (she's LOUD for a little girl!!)
the triggers that mark seems to notice is the presence of another dog. she doesn't bark at random people on the street. she barks at people at night sometimes, when she's especially ALERT, but that's if they walk out of the shadows or scare her.
the issue seems to be she won't snap out of it. the usual leash snap, firm tone, standing in front of her and backing her up, poking her on the side, etc... nothing works. she'll stop on her own 'eventually', but not on command. today she stopped barking for mark eventually then ran around pacing and puffing out her cheeks... for nothing! well, nothing in 'human world', but obviously something in 'Reyna's World'!
is this another 'stage' she's going through? anyone have any tips/insight/etc...
she is a quiet, sweet, calm girl the rest of the time... then this little sassy F%*# OFF bark comes out!!
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Post by dobereyna on Oct 21, 2011 20:22:25 GMT -5
BTW - those were just some examples, not 4 isolated instances...
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Post by dobermoms on Oct 22, 2011 14:50:39 GMT -5
Hello it's Kerrie.. Just my opinion but between 6 - 14 months of age, and sometimes longer in large breed dogs, they hit their second fear stage where the dogs will show a rise in their level of aggression (reactivity). During this time they may become more protective and territorial. They may suddenly be apprehensive about new things or shy or timid of new people or situations. This fear of new situations should be handled with the utmost patience. The dog is encouraged to work it out on his own. If anything, it is better to ignore the whole situation than to reinforce the fear by praising the dog or petting him while he is afraid. When you "reassure" a dog with "it's okay", you are telling him it is okay to be frightened and you are creating a potential problem. If your puppy appears apprehensive, avoid confrontation. Build their confidence back up with some training exercises. We are going through the same thing with Kazi right now and it is very difficult to change her focus. What you describe is exactly the same reactions Kazi is having. I am trying to stay very patient and if I am unable to do that then I bring her back in the house as the last thing she needs is for me to get frustrated.. Hopefully Monica will give us her insight.!!!!! Good Luck ....
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Post by Andreina on Oct 22, 2011 16:58:40 GMT -5
Scarlet is going through the second fear imprint as well. Always on alert on walks especially in dark and it's very difficult to snap her out of it also. I have tried bringing a really high value treat and stay patient. I am now trying to look ahead and if I see something that may make her react I do some sits and focus work until ive got her attention. Monica has given me some good tips also so I am sure she will chime in.
Like Reyna, Scarlet has a newfound fear of things she didn't fear before.
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Post by Pekoenut on Oct 25, 2011 12:23:11 GMT -5
Hey Everyone, We have Rio from the P litter. She is in training and doing great (commands are pretty solid for 5 month old). We do however seem to be having some of the same issues as those of you above. She is just coming on 5 months now. It seem to start at the training classes, barking at strangers that approached us/wired up dogs. If the don't come straight at us or allow her to approach them she is fine. Not overly social but not barking with hackles up. The biggest problem is I have a retail store where customers come in, its hard to control everyones approach. So I have had her out with me in the store on a leash, for the most part I continue on with the customer not making a big deal of the behaviour. allowing her time to settle and approach the person with a sssshhhhttttt/ leave it command if she continues to bark or growl at the people. If they come directly at us or try to approach her she becomes very apprhensive. Dog trainers in our area are few and far between. If anyone else has any other suggestions or comments they would be appreciated, I would hate for her to go so far as to bite some one, she would then have to be kenneled at work. I can't really have her barking and growling at all the customers either. I do understand its a fear period, do you think she will out grow this? should I just keep trying to bring her out to meet customers even though I can't control their actions? Or wait till she's older. I have been bringing her out and about other places and every where else is fine even if strangers are coming at us and walking by quickly. I need her to be able to ''quiet'' when I say its enough. By the way dog class has become much better, its really just the store where she won't leave it. I appreciate the comments. sorry for the book. Carey
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Post by Lisa on Oct 25, 2011 13:26:29 GMT -5
Pekoenut I think Rio is too young to be leashed in the store. She needs to run and have fun. You make your baby work and she is not ready for.
If you don't have time to walk her you may consider to hire someone to take her for a long walk to burn the energy.
Barking is normal canine behavior. Dogs bark when they’re lonely, anxious, bored or frightened. They also bark to protect their territory. Dobermans are bred for protection traits.
I don't see Asha being frightened when she barks. She protects her property and her pack.
We never leave dogs in the backyard without supervision. As soon as they start barking we take them inside. They learned to stop when we say so.
Socializing is very important. The world is perceived through a dog's busy nose. As more scents they learn as more confident they become.
Kids is the only distraction we have issues with. There are no kids in our family or in the neighborehood.
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Post by toyzshopgary on Oct 25, 2011 13:34:58 GMT -5
I'm not a dog trainer so I want to qualify that 1st. Something that I got from a behavorist and Andrenia touched on it somewhat in a thread I read was changing focus and direction of the dog.
Zeus is 3 years old in Nov so he's not a pup the dogs in this thread, but here is something we had going on. I work at home lots and Zeus is in my home office with me and my wife has a home based business with people coming in multiple times during the day. We are together in the basement with my office and my wife's business space taking our basement space.
Basically Zeus was going nuts each time the doorbell rang barking and going crazy. I did have Barkbusters for a bit and their thing is you give the dog a loud BAH, and another with a little chain pouch you toss his way towards his feet, so you more or less are showing dominance over the dog to respond. It worked sort of, but what it also did was increase fear anxiety in the dog. That's what the behavorist told me.
He suggested to try small treat rewards and basic traiing to change focus. So when the dog would bark from the doorbell, change the focus by calling the dog to come, sit ,down, etc and have a safe spot for the dog to be directed to. also suggestion to have a lead on the dog in the house and use it to get the come, sit, down on the pillow if needed. In Zeus's case he has a big pillow bed behind me in my office. So you change the focus from the doorbell to you and your commands in a calm not angry loud voice and as the dog responds and obeys he gets the treat rewards. It's changing behaviours and focus.
Anyway I figured.."yea right that's a load of crap" no matter what we really do calm , loud, ignore or react Zeus still barks and goes nuts when he hears the doorbell in my office. After the people come in and downstaris then he's quick to grab a toy and parade it around and he wants to see them and greet in his way of circling and grunting and he's not angry.
Well it really worked. I have a little container with small 1/4" treats that seem to work for him. We set him up at 1st for a while and I would call him to come and sit and down on his bed and high praise and keep his focus to me and use a few treats. It took probably a solid week of being consistent and when the doorbell rang my focus went to him and did the above. At this point his reaction to the doorbell when he's downstairs with us is about 10% of what it was and many times it's almost nothing than to want to get a toy in his mouth and parade around the gate at my door more happy to see the people.
I know for me it was a shock on the change. Now I must also mention that Zeus was neutered recently ( 2 months ago) and we started what I saying mid September. His neuter has changed tons about his personality, temperment and probably also his trainability to the positive.
I'm sure if Monica has a chance to see this she can provide more educated and experience insight.
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Post by Pekoenut on Oct 25, 2011 13:58:25 GMT -5
Hi Lisa, Rio does go for long walks twice a day, plays in the yard with our other dog and in the house with her things. We do regular hikes in the bush as well to burn the energy. I don't belive this comes from her having too much energy as she is not boistrous in the store or at home. I am not going to take the leash off at the store as I need to be able to have control in case she does elscalet and goes to bite someone who doesn't back of when she is growling at them. She is essential loose in the store with leash attached and if someone comes in I am on the other end of the leash. We do some trainning in the store but not when customers are in. I allow her to approach the people in her own way. Its when the come in quick and if they come right at us that she is totally ''on'' hackels up barking and growling. If the come in slowly and wander and we approach them she is much better. I can't always control or make other people approach as we would like. Unfortunatley I disagree with you on the working part, I don't think she is too young for basic obedience and we do try to socialize her at every opportunity. I do get the doberman protection insticts and I don't expect her or want her to be best buddies with strangers, but I can't allow her to growl and have the ''body'' language that she is going to bite one of my customers either. She does have a bed in my office. My hope was to have her loose in the store but if we can't get a handle on the barking/growling at customers then she will have to stay in the office. I would like her to have more freedom than that at work but I can't afford to lose customers because their afraid of the dog. Thanks for the suggestions sorry to hijack the original posters thread Carey
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Post by Andreina on Oct 25, 2011 15:21:14 GMT -5
Hi Lisa, Rio does go for long walks twice a day, plays in the yard with our other dog and in the house with her things. We do regular hikes in the bush as well to burn the energy. I don't belive this comes from her having too much energy as she is not boistrous in the store or at home. I am not going to take the leash off at the store as I need to be able to have control in case she does elscalet and goes to bite someone who doesn't back of when she is growling at them. She is essential loose in the store with leash attached and if someone comes in I am on the other end of the leash. We do some trainning in the store but not when customers are in. I allow her to approach the people in her own way. Its when the come in quick and if they come right at us that she is totally ''on'' hackels up barking and growling. If the come in slowly and wander and we approach them she is much better. I can't always control or make other people approach as we would like. Unfortunatley I disagree with you on the working part, I don't think she is too young for basic obedience and we do try to socialize her at every opportunity. I do get the doberman protection insticts and I don't expect her or want her to be best buddies with strangers, but I can't allow her to growl and have the ''body'' language that she is going to bite one of my customers either. She does have a bed in my office. My hope was to have her loose in the store but if we can't get a handle on the barking/growling at customers then she will have to stay in the office. I would like her to have more freedom than that at work but I can't afford to lose customers because their afraid of the dog. Thanks for the suggestions sorry to hijack the original posters thread Carey Carey, I think what Lisa meant by "being too young to work" is that your pup most likely doesn't understand how to properly behave in your store at this age. She is just a baby, and learning about her environments, boundaries and meeting new people. If it's not an energy issue, my own personal thoughts would be the obedience aspect. Is she in any obedience classes? Socialized with other people/dogs outside of your family and the store? Maybe Rio needs individual training time aside from the other dogs? Could it be that she feels vulnerable in the store, when the other dogs are not with her also? I am definitely not the most experienced trainer as I have tons of questions and am just learning myself, but that's some of what pops into my head. Focus games with Rio will really help you out. What I have noticed is when Scarlet (from the o-litter) barks at strangers its cuz she is scared by someone suddenly approaching. I need to get her attention seconds before she spots them, otherwise I won't get any eye contact from her. Rio could also be sensing nervousness from you, in that every time a client comes to the shop you wonder and fear when Rio will start barking. (Sound like familiar advice Monica? ) I am going through a similar experience to you right now with my pup. The best advice I got from Monica is to ignore it, distract your pup and work on obedience in that situation. Command Rio into a down on her bed, and you and your client go about your business ignoring her. Maybe once Rio is comfortable with the fact that she needs to lay down and relax when someone comes in, you can start introducing a treat cup and have your clients give her treats? Now that I have rambled... lol hope that was a bit helpful.
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Post by Dobereich on Oct 25, 2011 16:44:29 GMT -5
I could sugar coat this, but I would prefer to be direct so that the same mistakes don't repeat themselves. The issue that some seem to be having is directly from a lack of leadership and direction... as perceived by the puppy. Gary, what is actually working with your new approach to Zeus's barking is that you are acknowledging Zeus's alarm and then taking control. By telling him to do something else, you have now given him something to do that he understands and feels comfortable doing. But you didn't deny him the alert, you simply just took over. That is what you need to do, be the one who makes the decisions. People who just throw things at their dog for barking are working against the dog's natural instincts. You must acknowledge the dog's instinct to alert, then as an Alfa take control. treats, no treats, discipline, whatever... the lesson here is that most times people merely "react" instead of being in control. Referring to Scarlet's situation to educate (not to pick) . I recommended some things for Andreina to try in order to keep Scarlet focused on her, instead of the unknown around her. But Scarlet doesn't react the same way when she walks with Julian (Andreina's other 1/2). So is the issue a real behavioural concern, a puppy stage, etc? Or is it that as the puppy gains more awareness, that they trust the Alfa more or less? When a dog doesn't know what to do, give them something to do that they can identify with. When they are doing what is familiar, it will lower their own stress while giving you the opportunity to take control and reward their positive behaviour. The fact is that you have taken control, which relieves the dog's state of mind. Every action should be initiated by you, not your dog. Meetings and greetings should be OK by you, not your dog. Your dog should not be sent out to greet people either, because you are directly allowing them the right to choose how they greet that person, or if they want to. Imagine having a 3 year old child, people pass by and say, "cute child". They stop and talk to you, you look back and forth between the child and person speaking, then move on. What do you suppose would happen if you were to tell your 3 year to walk away from your protection and into the arms of a stranger? Most kids would clutch your leg in fear, because its just not normal to offer your child (or puppy) to someone outside of the family... or pack in other words. When a dog knows his or her place that dog will be confident and secure. They might not like strangers, or new situations, they can have varying levels of confidence genetically as well. But most of a dog's social behaviour develops between 4-16 months of age. How they are in the end as an adult will have everything to do with how they were raised as a puppy. If your puppy is doing something you don't believe is healthy, then work to change it. But don't ask your puppy to do anything... lead by example, give them a single command and follow through. Always set your dog up so that they can succeed, then give them more opportunity to grow. Dogs are pack animals and they follow the lead by the Alfa. We have domesticated our dogs, but they are still pack oriented and understand our body language and tone more then they do our words. How can a dog or puppy feel confident in a new situation with an owner who isn't in control? If you don't know how to react to these situations it gives your pup/dog a real sense of being lost. When a dog thinks for themselves, their reactions are unpredictable. So plan a course out in your mind and set up scenarios where you can be in control in order to effectively train your puppy.
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Post by Dobereich on Oct 25, 2011 16:54:41 GMT -5
Reyna has started something relatively 'new' in the last few weeks... here are the circumstances: - mark drops her off at doggie daycare and she barks at anyone that walks past as they are walking in, or anyone who enters when she is in the reception area -she also barks at anyone who enters the daycare when she is being picked up -she went crazy barking at a little fluffy white (quiet) dog the other night who was coming into our apartment building with their owner (we had never seen them before). she wouldn't stop and even turned around after we walked away to go right up to this little thing and bark in it's face -she barked at people in the hallway today that she has never barked at before it's not a little bark... it's a BIG one, hair on the back of her neck UP, back legs our in her stance, etc... (she's LOUD for a little girl!!) the triggers that mark seems to notice is the presence of another dog. she doesn't bark at random people on the street. she barks at people at night sometimes, when she's especially ALERT, but that's if they walk out of the shadows or scare her. the issue seems to be she won't snap out of it. the usual leash snap, firm tone, standing in front of her and backing her up, poking her on the side, etc... nothing works. she'll stop on her own 'eventually', but not on command. today she stopped barking for mark eventually then ran around pacing and puffing out her cheeks... for nothing! well, nothing in 'human world', but obviously something in 'Reyna's World'! is this another 'stage' she's going through? anyone have any tips/insight/etc... she is a quiet, sweet, calm girl the rest of the time... then this little sassy F%*# OFF bark comes out!! Reyna's acting up because her drive is up and she gets a bit controlling or frantic. She needs to have her freedom taken away in these situations and directed on what she should be doing. She doesn't own that entrance way, and she's not allowed to assert herself. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you are being a bit too polite about "asking" her to stop and trying to convince her to do something else. Once you give her any command, she must obey. Its a command, not a request. Blocking her view, trying to get her to notice you, etc. That's diversion, not assertion.
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Post by Dobereich on Oct 25, 2011 17:24:15 GMT -5
Hi Lisa, Rio does go for long walks twice a day, plays in the yard with our other dog and in the house with her things. We do regular hikes in the bush as well to burn the energy. I don't belive this comes from her having too much energy as she is not boistrous in the store or at home. I am not going to take the leash off at the store as I need to be able to have control in case she does elscalet and goes to bite someone who doesn't back of when she is growling at them. She is essential loose in the store with leash attached and if someone comes in I am on the other end of the leash. We do some trainning in the store but not when customers are in. I allow her to approach the people in her own way. Its when the come in quick and if they come right at us that she is totally ''on'' hackels up barking and growling. If the come in slowly and wander and we approach them she is much better. I can't always control or make other people approach as we would like. Unfortunatley I disagree with you on the working part, I don't think she is too young for basic obedience and we do try to socialize her at every opportunity. I do get the doberman protection insticts and I don't expect her or want her to be best buddies with strangers, but I can't allow her to growl and have the ''body'' language that she is going to bite one of my customers either. She does have a bed in my office. My hope was to have her loose in the store but if we can't get a handle on the barking/growling at customers then she will have to stay in the office. I would like her to have more freedom than that at work but I can't afford to lose customers because their afraid of the dog. Thanks for the suggestions sorry to hijack the original posters thread Carey You are actually trying to control the way people approach Rio instead of controlling Rio's reaction. Try short bouts of tethering Rio to your waist and go about your business at the store. don't even think about her, except when you give her commands. She is like an extra appendage, part of you, and the more comfortable you become with this exercise the more she will be able to read your body language. When someone comes into the store, go and greet them. Now you have taken full control, not waiting for either the stranger or Rio's reaction, but being the aggressor yourself. When you get to the person you can be speaking, "I'm training my puppy so just ignore my silly leash and my puppy". Then when you get to the person give Rio the command to sit, but be sure to follow through with a firm STAY. If she reacts or starts any grumblings, pulling back, etc. She is to be put back into the sit and told to "LEAVE IT". Now you have given the command, it is the breaking of that command that requires attention and not how she reacts to the stranger. Rio is only a puppy, so I would not do this exercise for longer then an hour. It would be best if you could set this up with some people you know so that you can make several approaches towards them, etc. When you are done working with her, let her potty and she goes in the crate, or behind the counter on a down stay. But all greetings need to be controlled by you, she cannot be roaming around deciding who and how people approach her. When she is older and understands her position beside you, then she can be free in the store. I used to have my dogs in my store. If they were loose it would be instinct to run towards the door when they heard the door chime. Every single time I called them to come to me, then from there they were directed on what I wanted them to do next. But I greeted the patron first, not my dog. Same thing happens here every week. Almost all of you have come and met my dogs, without any commands they know that I have accepted you, so they accept you too. Now I might give them more freedom at first because I am trying to show my dog's unbridled nature. But there is no doubt that my dogs have already realized that I have accepted my company. Hopefully this will help, Rio's just a baby and the posturing is an attempt to avoid dealing with the situation. She can't be allowed to make those decisions though, and she shouldn't be pushed. Just keep her focused on the exercises you are doing with her and enforce your expectations in the exercise over her reactions to the environment.
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Post by Pekoenut on Oct 26, 2011 10:42:45 GMT -5
Hi All, This is just to clarify a bit. In Monica's above post this is how we have been approaching people. She is not allowed to just run out and bark at people at her own will. I make an effort to ensure I am not showing any feelings that maybe adding to her anxiety. We will hear someone come in, get up from the office go out (she is by my side on a leash) I will greet the customer, I don't say anything to Rio she is not on a command just at my side. If the person comes in slow and is relaxed, talks and goes about their business, she will give one bark and a growl I then say sshhht if she continues I will ask for a leave it. She is then looking at me and will settle. This is fine. How ever if someone comes in quick or approaches us first her posture will become fearful hackles up and refuses to leave it. Growling/ barking. I try not to make a big fuss and explain to the customer that I am training and trying to socialize her. But she will still remain ''distrustful'' of that person that moved to quick and will continue with the head low and growling. Now I have 2 small children that move quick, we have cats/dogs and horses and she is 100% fine with all of that. If I take her out to the mall/park or what ever she is fine no fear full behaviour to the strangers we encounter, she is not thrilled with them but she doesn''t continue to growl or bark at them. I can't have my customers afraid to come in the store and if I leave her in her bed or crated it feels like we are avoiding the issue all together, (she will still bark from the crate, I come and just shut the office door and shut the light off if she doesn't stop) To get her used to strangers coming in should she not be out and about seeing them? She can not see people from my office where the bed is. I feel like I should be addressing this now while still a pup. I have never owned a dog that would continue to growl at a stranger after you have told them to leave it. Sorry for the book again but I do appreciate the help as I want her to be a well rounded adult that can be with me in the store with out me worrying about her biting someone. I don't mind the bark 'hey mom someone is here'' but then she needs to leave it.
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Post by Lisa on Oct 28, 2011 13:26:02 GMT -5
When I had issues with Asha "settle" helped her to understand who is the boss.
"Settle" doesn't mean down... it's more relaxed down position. She should feel comfortable next to you. If she gets up make her settle again. I trained Asha to settle when I was watching TV or chatting online. Most of the time she fell asleep eventually. Then we started coming to the obedience classes ahead of time. She had to settle when I was watching other dogs working. The exercise had changed my girl. She knows now I am ALFA and she does what I want.
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Post by dobereyna on Oct 28, 2011 18:39:09 GMT -5
THANKS MONICA!
I am more firm with Reyna than Mark is, that's for sure... ;D She has him a little whipped... LOL! Shhhh don't tell him I said that.
Will work on the training Monica... thank you!!
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