kobe
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Posts: 14
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Post by kobe on Apr 2, 2013 11:14:38 GMT -5
Hi
Korina here - but you can call me Ko
I introduced myself and asked a question on the puppies - U-litter thread but thought I'd start a new one with lots of newbie questions.
I am waiting for my first dog ever (U-litter female) and have lots of questions, most of which I'm sure will be answered by Monica's puppy guide, but am so anxious to know everything RIGHT NOW (lol) that i thought I'd start with one right now. I have more, but one at a time!
here goes:
Overnight house training
The plan is to have my girl's permanent crate (large enough to grow into) in the main room of the house (kitchen) where I spend most of my time and right by the back door.
But, for sleeping, I plan to have her sleeping in the bedroom (on the floor). I was thinking to initially have a second crate (smaller) which I would use until she was able to sleep through the night without incident and then graduate her to a dog bed beside the bed.
So…. the question is…. approximately how long will it take to have her sleep through the night without having to go pee? I basically just need to know at what point I can get rid of the 2nd crate (and therefore what size of crate I can get away with)? I'm hoping to borrow a small one or buy a used one for this time period.
I'm not sure if this seems like a reasonable plan or not.
thanks! Ko
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Post by Dobereich on Apr 2, 2013 12:46:03 GMT -5
Hah, you got me for this one anyhow....lol. Its a good question.
Firstly, yes, you're right. We will have an extensive conversation about this when you're ready to take your puppy home. But this forum is new and growing. Its good to post questions here for others who might need help as well.
My recommendations about puppy rearing doesn't always gel with some others. My methods are based an understanding of Canine nature and behaviour as pack animals, and I try not to humanize them (Dobes do a good enough good of doing that all on their own....lol).
When I was a mother I never left my children in another room to cry out alone. Abandoning my vulnerable infant who relies on me for protection and comfort was never a concept I could agree on as a teaching method to independence. Not to compare a child to a dog, but if I don't agree with this method in humans, I really won't agree with it when dealing with a pack animal.
Dobes, like most (but not all) other breeds of dogs, are pack oriented. This means that they find leadership (or take it) and follow a rule of hierarchy. Dobes are also people oriented, which means that we become their pack once they leave their littermates.
When the pups are here with me they sleep together for warmth and comfort. Even after ear cropping, I will divide the pups to limit damage to their ears, but at night they sleep together. So I definitely agree with keeping your puppy close at nighttime more then any other.
You'll meet the litter to select your puppy a couple weeks before you are able to bring her home. About a week or so beforehand, get her a small blanket or toy and leave it in a common living area that will pick-up scents from your home. Puppies use their sense of smell from birth. Having this article will familiarize your puppy with the smells associated with your environment and help her to recognize your home when she gets there.
Besides meeting you a time or two, and being familiar with the scent of her new environment, the rest is all new to the puppy and she'll follow you everywhere, carefully watching for your guidance. Besides you, she won't really know anything about routine, when to sleep and where, etc. Now imagine taking this puppy and leaving her alone in what might as well be another town while you shut out the lights and leave her. to a pack animal this is by full definition abandonment. You've exiled your puppy while the rest of the pack leaves. Some argue that wild pack animals do this as well, but the litter is together and start to explore and wander when they're ready while still having a chaperon and full protection of the den they were born in.
Its my recommendation that all pups sleep in the bedroom for the first several weeks, if not forever. Ideally they will sleep in a crate, initially close enough to the bed so that they do not feel alone. They learn that night time is for sleeping as you fall asleep it will cue the pup to do the same.
The first night might be rough, but the more comfortable your puppy is, the longer he/she will sleep. On average a pup that feels secure will sleep approx 6 hours during the night by the 3rd night home. Here is a good place for others to tell their experiences with their own pups, and also compare if they did or did not leave their pups alone during the night (with or without another dog with them if not themselves).
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kobe
New Member
Posts: 14
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Post by kobe on Apr 2, 2013 14:17:59 GMT -5
awesome information Monica!! Thanks for the response. I completely agree with your approach.
I will definitely be having the puppy (and eventually full-grown dog) sleep in the bedroom from day one and forever onward. I would have her sleep in the bed too (lol) but I know that is a no-no. Big sigh....
So, I'm guessing that the point that I graduate her from sleeping at night from a crate to just the bedroom floor (doggie bed) will be about 3-4 weeks after I bring her home? So I can get by with a crate for a 30lb dog? Until I can completely trust her to have no accidents or not to get into trouble, I plan to close the bedroom door closed too - to better keep an eye/ear out.
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Post by Dobereich on Apr 2, 2013 17:08:54 GMT -5
Yes, depending on the dog, usually around 5 months you can start having them sleep on their own doggie bed in place of the crate. Tethering might be required at first, and that is in your puppy booklet that I will give you when you take your puppy home.
I will caution you about taking on a used crate, as there have been two outbreaks of parvo over the past few years. For the money, I'd get a new one over dealing with one on kijiji or something.
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Post by hooligan on Apr 2, 2013 17:42:51 GMT -5
You are going to have so much fun with your girl. Congratulations!
Our previous Dobe was an adult when he came to us and he lived to a ripe old age, so when Jack came home, I hadn't housetrained a pup in about 25 years. And I had never crated a dog. So it was as if everything was new to us.
Jack's big crate is in the bedroom, just a few feet from the bed. We bought a large wire one with a divider so that when he was young, we could make his sleeping area much smaller (and discourage pottying in the crate). As he grew, we moved the divider to make his area larger and finally removed it completely.
Jack was the easiest dog I've ever housetrained, and he would have been trained even faster if it hadn't rained for three days straight soon after we brought him home. (He was NOT interested in going out in the rain and would run for the door as soon as we set him down.) During the day, if he even looked remotely as if he had to pee or poop, we carried him outside, and we made certain that he went out at least once an hour. And of course, we praised him like crazy when he did his business.
He peed in the house exactly once, and this was during that rainy time.
At night, we started by setting the alarm for every two hours. One of us would get up, wake him up, carry him outside to pee (a flashlight by the door is handy so you can see what's going on), then carry him back inside and put him straight back into his crate. No playing. No fooling around. We gradually lengthened this time over the next couple of weeks till he was sleeping through the night — and we were, too.
The key was that we never waited for him to let us know that he wanted to go out. We took him out on our schedule. And I'm sure that sometimes when the alarm went off, he was probably as sleepy as we were and as grumpy about having to wake up and go outside.
My theory is that because of the way we did things, Jack never got into the habit of whining in his crate to let us know that he needed to go out. We are definitely not morning people, so this has paid off hugely for us. Jack sleeps as long as we sleep, and he gets up when we do; in fact, if we get up earlier than usual, he often goes outside to potty, eats his breakfast and then heads straight back up to his crate to grab some more sleep.
We didn't have a crate anywhere else in the house, though we do have a smaller one for the vehicle. We just bought a couple of baby gates, which we moved around to block off certain areas, depending on what we were doing.
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Post by Andreina on Apr 3, 2013 8:10:23 GMT -5
For us, we have Scars crate in our room as well. The first actually 2 weeks were rough for us and now I know why! She didnt like the metal wire crate... We got two crates, one a big metal wire one, and then a medium sized plastic one like a vari-kennel. Well, we had the big metal one set up and blocked off with tons of blankets and stuff in there, but she still screemed all night every night. We didnt know what to do, so we slept beside her crate on the floor in shifts lmao.... That was the only way she stopped, and I refused to let her in the bed and develop a habit. Anyways, we changed the crate to plastic after we realized that could have been the issue and what do you know it stopped. Then a couple of months ago, I was feeling like her plastic crate might be too small, so we set up this giant metal crate again thinking she would love the space... but she still hollered all night for two nights until I said ok, She obviously just doesnt like the metal crate LOL. She prefers to be enclosed in the plastic crate, bunched up like a pretzel in the back haha. If thats her thing - whatever. My point being, for us I think it was the style of the crate that scarlet didnt like, but other wise i think she would have been fine. She will be two next week, and we still dont have her sleeping on her own bed beside us. She just doesnt like beds and doesnt get the concept of them lol she prefers to be with us on our bed. We tried getting her to stay there for a few nights, but the result was her big butt getting in between us at 3am a couple of times...sooooo.... no bed for scarlet anymore, in her crate she goes at night! Even if we did get her to sleep on the bed, I would still keep her crate trained in case we ever did need it again she wouldnt forget what it is. as for potty training, we didnt have any issues with that either. We took her outside right after every meal and basically every 2 hours or when we saw her smelling. She only had a couple of pee accidents in the house which was pretty good! and mostly our faults for forgetting to take her out.... Overnights we ok as well. For the first two weeks, we took her out once in the night around 2 am and then she was fine for the morning. And if Scarlet got the lazy gene from Cajun, your girl might be sleeping 15 hours a night like mine too lmao!!
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Post by susanw on Apr 3, 2013 9:08:45 GMT -5
Hi Korina, Welcome to the forum and congrats on being a lucky new Dobreich Parent. You will find Monica is The Best for giving honest and sensible advice and support for your puppy. However, the folks here are also an excellent resource as well, especially the owners who have had/or have more than one Dobe and lots of experience. My boy Quin is 20 months old and is also my first Dobe. He was just the opposite of Scarlett. I also had 2 different crates; big wire one for the house and a plastic one for the car. From the 1st day I brought him home in it he hated the plastic crate., perhaps because he couldn't see out of it as well I have a big 100 yr old house, and it's a long trip downstairs with a puppy in the middle of the night. I did try the first night to keep him in the plastic crate beside my bed. No go. Neither one of us got any sleep so the next night I moved him downstairs to his wire crate in the family room, and for the next 2 weeks or so I slept beside him on the couch. Not the ideal situation but when he got restless and needed to go out, the back door was right there. Unfortunately I soon broke my own rule of "no dogs on the couch" and while he was still small, let him snuggle beside me in the morning for a little while - only worked while he was small . . . no room now..LOL. It's a cheapy couch - not allowed on my good antiques!! I found as long as you followed Monica's advice to not provide water after 8pm he only needed to go out once, aroud 3 or 4 am. Then right back into the crate and back to sleep. No falling for the old "lets get crazy and play" ploy. He only had a couple of pee accidents and 1 poop and those were both my fault for not paying attention whe he was out of the crate. Whenever I went out, he went into his crate without any problems. Over time, he was allowed out of the crate but confined to the family room by using a baby gate. At nght he still slept in the crate. Then that area was extended to the rest of the gound floor, but not the kitchen. He has never been allowed in there as I'm always afraid that a big pointy snoopy nose will poke something off the counter/stove or I'll drop something on him. To this day he does not sleep in my bedroom. He is allowed upstairs when I'm working in my studio but he's a bit of a sock thief so I have to watch him. He does have free range of the house at night now but chooses not to come upstairs although if I'm not moving about by 7am he comes up to see what I'm doing ( and see iif he can sneak smething when I'm in the shower) Ironically, he did come up this morning for a cuddle for about 15 mins, then went back downstairs to his own place. My bedroom is very cold in the winter so he's really more comfortable downstairs. The design of your own living space will dictate what works best for you too. All in all, he was not a difficult dog to housetrain and continues to be a source of fun and affection. Ok . . .he's in his terrible-teens and there are some days........!!!
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Post by hooligan on Apr 3, 2013 10:50:56 GMT -5
It's fascinating to read about the various strategies that have worked with different dogs. And I guess that's the key: you figure out your dog, remain flexible and do what works.
BTW, at the age of four, Jack is still crated overnight and when we go out (but we both work at home, so he's rarely alone for more than two or three hours). And I'm not sure that he will ever be given the run of the house on his own.
With our previous guy, we had a couple of incidents that made me wish he had been crate-trained. We once arrived home, for example, to find blood everywhere. We don't know what happened (perhaps someone came to the door while were gone?), but Fred had clearly become so worked up that he had put a foot through the bedroom window and slashed his leg. So it was off to the vet for stitches.
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Post by susanw on Apr 3, 2013 13:19:27 GMT -5
Dyanne brings up a good point Ko.
Just to clarify, Quin has "earned" the right to have free run of most of the house by not being destructive. Even as a puppy, he didn't chew my furniture, wires or electronics. Some dogs do so you must puppyproof. The one time I found him nibbling the corner of a fabric chair was the last!!! I gave it a light squirt with some dog repellent and he left it alone after that. The yelling made the point too..ha ha.
Also, like Dyanne, I am home most of the time and don't have to leave him for long hours - eg working 9-5.
I should also mention that putting his large crate in my bedroom was never an option as these old houses don't have big enough bedrooms. There was just no place for it.
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kobe
New Member
Posts: 14
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Post by kobe on Apr 3, 2013 13:41:06 GMT -5
thanks everyone for such helpful information!!! Susan, Dyanne, Andreina
I'm certainly getting a good idea of various situations, depending on dog, house set-up, owners flexibility.... Glad to hear that there not just one right solution. I guess that I will figure out things out with my girl and see what happens.
I'm lucky that I work from home and can be available to her more regularly than the average 9-5er. I will also be setting up at least one baby gate, keeping doors closed as well and keeping a very watchful eye on her.
Anyone else... feel free to add more - always looking for more experiences.. You just don't find this kind of information in a book!
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Post by Lisa on Apr 3, 2013 20:12:52 GMT -5
That's great you are working from home. It will help a lot with raising a puppy. We never had a problem with dogs sleeping in the kitchen (first level). None of my puppies cried or had separation anxiety....maybe I am just lucky. We work full time and have a dog walker who comes at lunch time. Puppies learn fast to be independent. It's very improtant not to make fuss while leaving. As usual I kiss my dogs and say "bye-bye" and leave quietly. Routine is very important for a dog. ex) If you don't want your dog on furniture don't allow it to your puppy. When they learn it's very hard to break later. BTW my dogs all over my furniture but it's never been my rule not to allow it Here is Asha's Doberinn LOL... she stayed there locked for apporox. 4 hours. We removed x-pen when she was 6 months old.
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Post by dobermoms on Apr 3, 2013 21:28:04 GMT -5
Congratulations again, and welcome to the Dobereich family. Puppy training...hmmmm...lets see if we can remember any of this...lol.
Both of our dogs sleep in the bedroom with us...always have and always will. When Kazi came home, we had a crate set up beside the bed for her...it was beside me, so she could hear my breathing, and I could listen to her snoring...LOL. This was where she slept at night from day 1. She still sleeps beside the bed, just now she is on her dog beds and blankets ( things have changed since day 1..lol ) The advice above this post is excellent....I can remember jumping up and down, clapping our hands and yelling out praise---good girl---when Kazi did her business. Oh the neighbours at the time must have thought we were NUTS...but to this day, she goes outside and does her business almost immediately and she still gets praise ( minus the jumping up and down ). I remember it taking much longer than 3-5 months for Kazi to be "trusted" to sleep outside of her crate. I think it was about 14 months....when we moved in May of last year to our current house, we decided not to set up her crate, but let her sleep freely on her pet beds. We do not use a crate for Dante, so now this meant that the 2 dogs had freedom at night. It was a bit of an adjustment for all of us, but it worked, and still does to this day. Our bedroom is large enough to have pet beds on each side of the bed...Dante with Kerrie and Kazi beside me. We still have Kazi's crate set up in the "breezeway" of our home, on the main floor, for when we leave them at home...she is crated and Dante is free. This set-up works well for our dogs, and we know they are safe when we 're not at home. Baby gates are an amazing help also. We don't close any doors in the house either as I'm quite confident that the dogs would find a way to open them anyways...and I know we wouldn't be happy with their techniques. We use the baby gates to keep them out ( or safe ) from areas we don't want them to explore.
I remember that Monica said the first 2 nights are a gift....what I mean by this is that they are the only 2 nights that you are allowed to let your puppy sleep in your bed with you as they make the transition from Monica's house to your house. I think we only did the first night, and then toughed it out after that. There will definitely be an adjustment period, so sleep may come in spurts for the first couple of days to couple of weeks, but they will adjust. There is a clear-cut reason for this, and I'm sure it has something about identifying you as the pack leader....but the reason, some days, just doesn't seem like a good enough one as you will just want to cuddle with your little girl. Be strong...lol...and know that we have all made mistakes in the upbringing our of dogs.
We too took the puppies outside every 2 hours also for bathroom breaks....and our only mistakes in the house were when we didn't respond quick enough. I would suggest NOT to use pee pads that are sold in the pet stores...it will actually slow down the process of potty training. Trust us....we were given them for Kazi, and for weeks after we stopped using them, eachtime her paws hit a "different flooring"..ie carpet, she thought it was a pee pad...and well ...she would. It took a big of patience and time before we changed the way that she processed flooring and "outside, and many frustrating moments.
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Post by junosbionictale on Apr 5, 2013 23:28:59 GMT -5
Hello Kobe and welcome to the Dobereich family.
When we first got Isi, years ago, we crated her in our room with the door opening facing the bed so she could see us. At the time we had another dog that slept with us on the bed. Most dogs I find are very routine oriented and quickly adjust to your routines. In house training Isi we had no accidents, which is probably unusual, but I was very attentive to the signs and had a very strict routine. It helps to have another dog in the house trained already to help, but if you don't have one routine is best. I never do not have water down for my dogs even at night, although many folks believe that not having water down is important, you decide I guess. I know if I was a dog and I know the water is going up around 8 pm I'm going to drink the bowl dry about 7:45...I've never found having water down a problem. I too housetrained with an overnight routine, as suggested above by Dyanne. I start at dusk no matter the season. Take them out wait till they go pee, give them a command and praise word, (not "good dog" they get that a lot from people for no reason at all), for me it was command then "yes" as they did their business. When you have a dog already trained they catch on very quickly. I went from a 4 hour overnight schedule to 6 in no time. I still keep that 6 hour schedule. (They can go longer if need be) Be consistent, when dusk comes it's outside, when I go to bed it's outside, when my alarm goes off it is outside first, then feed them, then feed me, read the paper and right before I leave for work out a last time for #1 and #2. Isi would then have free run of the house, again a trained dog that already knows the routine helps, they would basically sleep all day, but right away again once home it was outside with them. If you have the working from home option again I would say stick to a routine, 2-3 hours then out, command praise, back in to work. Housetraining is a lot of work, watching, recognizing behaviours, but dogs understand routine.
Crating we started Isi in a crate as a puppy again close to the bed, we covered all round it so she could only see out to us in bed, gave her a shirt or towel I had used and I would often talk to her using her name just so she knew we were there and were aware she was there. We eventually were able to move the crate to just inside our bedroom door she could still see us and that was it. She loved her crate and would go lie in it often on her own after about a year we didn't even close the crate door, when our other dog died, we thought she'd be right up on the bed at night, because she was during the day, or if you were sick at home, but she didn't, she'd often start off in the crate but then in the morning after I let them outside she'd come back upstairs and cuddle under the covers with my wife. Every dog is different, each one unique.
Juno, who we have now, we got as an adult dog. Monica warned us she was a water pig, and she was, but she learned the water was always there and is fine with it down now. She learned our routines quickly, we have another dog still, although much older. Still our routine wasn't that much different from Monica's she knew outside was "do your business" time, and I used Monica's phrase for a while and she caught on quick, not really helpful with a puppy, but it does show the power of a strong routine.
Summing up (I talk too much). Crate yes, routine yes, watch for behaviour yes, and command/praise when they do what you want...in this case peeing or other outside. A quick game of throw, tug or dinner right after the coming home outside pee break will often help solidify your routine and is a reward reinforcing that routine.
And now I want another puppy...just kidding Monica, no puppies...yet.
Martin
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Post by dobermoms on Apr 6, 2013 9:33:43 GMT -5
Excellent advice Martin, as usual. Routine, routine, routine....that's what it's all about.
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Post by ladydon on Apr 9, 2013 19:10:36 GMT -5
Congrats! As for Diesel, I was strict from day 1. I mean the first night I let him sleep with me inside my room but he slept in his crate. He cried but I dealt with it and it wasn't for like hours and hours. My biggest advice is tire out your dog lol....The more you tire them out the less fuss you'll get when crate training. Diesel was never ever left alone by himself for the first 6 months (unless he was sleeping) and that helped a great deal in terms of anxiety/separation issues. He doesn't urinate or defacate inside the house, he doesn't chew anything, counter surf, etc...it was important to have a constant eye on him so whenever he did something wrong, he was corrected asap. I have so much more to say but pretty much everyone's given their own experience on how they dealt with their pup...trust me...you'll be coming back to this forum for advice/questions lol....all I'm saying is enjoy your sleep for now while you can Can't wait to see which pup you'll be bringing home and the pics you'll be posting. I don't have a lot pics of Diesel when he was a wee lil pup so I highly highly request new owners to put tons of puppy pics.
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