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Post by hooligan on Sept 7, 2011 10:03:25 GMT -5
This issue came up as a result of a question Lisa asked after a comment I made on the O litter thread. I'm responding here so as not to hijack that thread with the continuing saga -- and it really is a saga -- of our attempts to persuade Jack to eat consistently.
Lisa asked whether Jack is spoiled. My answer is a long one.
Jack was never a great eater, but the problems started in earnest when he was about 10 months old and scored four raw chorizo sausages that had been left -- briefly unsupervised (stupid us!) -- on the kitchen counter. This sparked several months of gastro-intestinal issues: prolonged episodes of vomiting and severe diarrhea, weight loss, visits to our own vet and the emergency vet, special bland diets, and attempts to find a kibble a) that Jack would eat and b) that wouldn't trigger more diarrhea.
Once we settled on Acana Grasslands (mostly because he didn't turn up his nose at it completely and his poops were solid), we spent more than a year strictly following all the standard recommendations for dealing with a picky eater: no table scraps (which he didn't get anyway), no hovering or trying to persuade him to eat, and putting down his bowl for 20 min. max. If he didn't eat, the bowl was picked up until the next mealtime.
The result? Jack didn't much care. He would often go a couple of days, sometimes more, without eating. Sometimes, he'd eat half his food before turning away; other times, he would eat a full meal or two before completely quitting again. If he ate full meals two days in a row, it was cause for major celebration.
The only treats he got were during training, and as he has gotten older, these have been cut back dramatically. For months, his training reward has been exclusively the ball, though he still gets some treats (tiny wiener bits and cheese) twice a week when he tracks. And in the evenings, we do keep him amused with a small Kong toy stuffed with cooked liver or kidney.
We even tried feeding him raw after a friend made up and supplied us with some of the raw mixture she feeds her own Dobe, who loves it. Jack sniffed it once, went "Eeeee-ew, this is disgusting," and backed away from the bowl. He wouldn't go near it.
The upshot of all this is that a couple of months ago, we decided that, after more than a year, we had given the strict feeding regime a fair shot — with little success. So we have started doing all the things that the conventional wisdom says are definitely verboten.
Jack still doesn't get table scraps, but we mix a variety of tinned food (e.g., Tripett) with his kibble. We encourage him to lick the mixing spoon because this seems to motivate him to eat. We dance around like idiots (honestly!) with his food bowl in our hands because this arouses his drive and he seems to eat more eagerly when his drive is slightly aroused. We stick around while he's eating, and if he stops during a meal, we use all kinds of dopey little tricks to encourage him to go back to the bowl and finish. We'll also pick up the bowl but try again later when he often feels more like eating. And we sometimes place parts of some meals in the Kong Wobbler and give this to him to play with.
All this does seem to be working. He now eats more, skipping perhaps one meal or part of one meal every day or two rather than the other way around.
So . . . in answer to Lisa's question, I would say that, yes, Jack the Brat is definitely spoiled. But only after we spent a good long time trying not to spoil him. And yes, we have our fingers crossed in hopes that we aren't creating a monster. So far, we don't seem to be, but time will tell.
I've had dogs since I was six years old, and all, including our previous Dobe, were voracious eaters. So living with a picky eater is a completely new experience that has taken me completely by surprise.
If anyone has other suggestions for resolving this problem, I'd welcome hearing them.
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Post by toyzshopgary on Sept 7, 2011 19:59:46 GMT -5
Come to our house and see that you aren't alone We spoiled Zeus too and around a year old he was eating more lunch from restaurants and drive thru travelling with me than I was! He has never been voracious and is a poster child for Jenny Craig at maintaining his weight. We went through various kibbles, Canidae, Innova, Go Natural, and Monica had me go to Acana Grasslands and of all the kibbles this one he likes the best but still not a great eater. We used tripe back when with Innova and Go Natural but he just go trots from it and never gained anything. tried various kinds of tripe Ren's beef and Lamb versions, Merricks version and just stopped the tripe all together. in fact Dyanne if you are still using it I think I have a few cans I'll give you at D.O.G 3rd meet if you want it. Let me know. He gets a stew based of chicken broth and cooked hamburg mixed with his kibble about 70-75% kibble and 25-30% stew. Monica had me cut off all the drive through foods and special stuff and back to food boot camp. He gets offered a morning meal at 8AM it's down for 20 min and if he doesn't eat it gets picked up and he gets it again at supper. Doesn't eat then it starts all over the next morning. I would say it was at least 2 and probably like 3 months and he would graze around waiting for a better offer and then realized when we were done eating, he better eat beacuse the bowl would be getting picked up. It took a while but he has started to settle into this routine and he will eat pretty well at least one of the meals each day and more days of the week he will eat two meals. The biggest thing is to try and get the 2 meals split even and not be temped when he eats to add extra, do that and he will skip the next meal for sure. We had issues that way doubling up and then he would get trots etc from overeating but keeping the meals even and I did add a spoon of pumpkin one meal and a spoon of natural yogurt the other and equal portions and the stools got back to more normal. If he overeats and we get sucked into giving more it's like clockwork he gets loose stools and even trots the next dump after the meal. We also changed the ratio more kibble less stew and that helped on the stool front too. He was like 60% kibble, 40% stew and we upped the kibble ratio. We will still add some cooked chicken, or lean meat cut up and mixed in if we have extras from a meal now and then. I know we are to blame for spoiling him and catering too much. 4 dobermans before Zeus and not one was like this guy. They all ate well and if anything had to be carefull they didn't get overweight because they would eat as much as we would give them and gain weight accordingly. I saw Kazi wolfing down straight kibble at the 2nd D.O.G meet and I just shook my head thinking what a picky eater Zeus was compared to her and all because of my wife and I. The small changes though have helped, he's also put on a little weight as a result and right now is looking pretty good. I don't think he will ever have a weight problem the way he eats.
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Post by Lisa on Sept 7, 2011 21:06:35 GMT -5
I spoil all my dogs... Asha seems to have great appetite. Nothing works to break her good eating habits . She wolfs down any food like Kazi. Gino is a picky eater. Reading your posts I think Zeus was spoiled rotten . Dogs may go days without food demanding special treats.... that's great Zeus is making a good progress. I am not sure about Jack. He may have some mild digestive problems if the strict schedule and routine didn't help. Did you test his blood (full panel)? Is it normal? My Gino got kidney numbers slightly off. I adjusted his diet and his appetite is better now. If Gino gets too picky I don't give him food for a day. After that he wolfs his food like Asha. It's good to fast them once a week to let the system to detox itself. Jack doesn't look skinny. How much do you feed him? Overfeeding may cause problems too. The younger dogs need more food... active hyper dogs eat more. Dogs have different metabolism too. Did you try to feed him less and more often? Asha helped a lot to establish the strict routine in our house. Maybe you need the second dog? Yes dogs eat better in the competitive environment.
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Post by hooligan on Sept 7, 2011 22:45:05 GMT -5
Yeah, Jack's eating habits are a bit of a conundrum.
This morning, Bill gave him his breakfast on the deck, and he was completely uninterested. A little later, he wanted to play with a tennis ball, so I tossed it a couple of times for him. At this point, he carried the ball back up onto the deck, dropped it beside his bowl, and wolfed his breakfast.
Tonight, we gave him his dinner on the deck again. And again, he wasn't interested -- so after this morning's success, Bill tried tossing the ball for him a couple of times. Sure enough, he did exactly what he had done this a.m. and ended up eating his dinner. So we'll obviously be adding some ball play to our arsenal of get-Jack-to-eat strategies.
When he misses a meal, Lisa, we don't double up at the next meal or even try to toss in a bit extra. He gets the normal portion. And he eats, at the very most, 4 cups of kibble a day with a very small amount of tinned food mixed in. One tin of Tripett, for example, lasts three or four days.
Gary, sure, bring the Tripett to the next DOG meetup. We'll definitely take it off your hands.
A full blood panel is probably a good idea, Lisa. Jack is due for a checkup in a couple of months, and I think I'll ask the vet about it at that time. He gets a tablespoon of yogurt every morning (sometimes, he even turns up his nose at this), and we tried adding probiotics to his meals, but this didn't work out. He definitely won't touch his food when this is mixed in. Sigh.
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Post by dobereyna on Sept 7, 2011 23:23:33 GMT -5
Reyna is the little Queen of the picky eaters club! She is completely random in her patterns at home, but that is partially due to my random schedule... I try to keep her on a routine as much as possible, which is part of the reason she goes to daycare (which we call 'school'... ie "Are you picking Reyna up from school today? LOL") over half the week. She has a solid routine there, including meal, walk and naptimes. That being said, I was making her a concoction of kibble, yogurt, carrots, nutritional yeast, fish oil, vitamin e, kelp powder and warm water. She LOVED it. Then stopped eating it regularily, and I was putting it ack in the fridge more often than not. She got onto the raw food, because I forgot to pack Reyna's lunch one day so Mark had to give her money to buy lunch at the school cafeteria haha. They gave her a raw patty and she WOLFED it all in about 3 seconds... that was a FIRST! So she LOVED the raw, and was eating it exclusively for quite some time. Then suddenly... STOPPED. Cold turkey. No pun intended... That's when I tried the Acana Grasslands. The test was that I gave her a bowl for the first time at my parent's house where she NEVER eats, and she WOLFED it. She will to this day eat it dry. She eats 2 raw patties at school (8oz each), then gets 2cups of dry at home. If she wants more I give her a bit. Like Zeus, she will never overeat, and leaves food in her bowl constantly. I have gotten into the bad hait of leaving kibble down for her without even realizing. I sort of just clued into that a few days ago... no more of that - it's like doggie drive through! My theory was that if she wants to eat, I give her more. She stops when she's done. I am sure that's against EVERY guideline. When she was a puppy I was SO WORRIED she wasn't eating. It's so frustrating too...
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Post by Lisa on Sept 8, 2011 22:42:27 GMT -5
A full blood panel is probably a good idea, Lisa. Jack is due for a checkup in a couple of months, and I think I'll ask the vet about it at that time. He gets a tablespoon of yogurt every morning (sometimes, he even turns up his nose at this), and we tried adding probiotics to his meals, but this didn't work out. He definitely won't touch his food when this is mixed in. Sigh. Did you try to mix probiotics with tripe? I use homemade yogurt (kefir). It's a great source of probiotics. ACV helps to increase appetite but I have no idea how to make them eat it That's very interesting about a ball game and Jack apetite...do you feed him after his walks/play time? What raw meat/bone did you use to feed Jack? We have a great success with raw feeding. Asha and Gino love it. I use prey model and buy different meat like ground chicken, duck, pork, beef, bison (meat and organs). They get raw meaty bones - duck feet, necks, heads, beef and pork tails. Joanne if you stop worrying Reyna may eat better.... been there, done that They feel our worries and USE US!
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Post by hooligan on Sept 13, 2011 8:37:11 GMT -5
. . . Did you try to mix probiotics with tripe? I use homemade yogurt (kefir). It's a great source of probiotics. Sorry, just getting back to normal after several days away at the schutzhund nationals. Responses are in red.
I assume you mean raw tripe, not the tinned stuff. No, we haven't tried mixing the yogurt with raw tripe — or with anything, really. ACV helps to increase appetite but I have no idea how to make them eat it What is ACV? That's very interesting about a ball game and Jack apetite...do you feed him after his walks/play time? The ball play is just a couple of quick and short throws — just enough to slightly elevate his drive. We never feed him after (or before) vigorous exercise.What raw meat/bone did you use to feed Jack? We have a great success with raw feeding. Asha and Gino love it. I use prey model and buy different meat like ground chicken, duck, pork, beef, bison (meat and organs). They get raw meaty bones - duck feet, necks, heads, beef and pork tails. The raw we tried with Jack was a mixture of veggies, raw meat (can`t remember what variety) and bone ground up by a friend. It was the recipe she uses with her own guy, who loves it. Jack, however, was monumentally unimpressed.Joanne if you stop worrying Reyna may eat better.... been there, done that They feel our worries and USE US! Good advice, but hard to put into action. I never imagined myself signing up for yoga for the sake of my dog. LOL.
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Post by Lisa on Sept 13, 2011 16:41:32 GMT -5
ACV is apple cidar vinegar. I didn't suggest to mix yogurt and tripe. I meant probiotic/enzymes powder and tripe. My dogs have much better appetite after the walk in the off leash park. When Gino is sleepy he doesn't want to eat. Moody boys! Many dogs hate veggies. It may be a reason why Jack didn't like raw you gave him. You may try to give him raw chicken back (no spices). It will take a bit time for him to figure out what to do but once he tasted it you would see the happy face and maybe a prey dance. Gino always does it in the backyard. I love to watch it. You may sign up for yoga for yourself... LOL. I do it and it helps to keep up with my busy life.
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Post by dobereyna on Sept 13, 2011 19:21:50 GMT -5
Thanks everyone! I don't really worry about Reyna anymore... she gets 2 patties at 'school', then whatever Acana she can scorf at night. She won't eat in the AM unless I take her out for a play/walk... and she has to wait an hour after, so sometimes she 'forgets' LOL!!
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Post by dobermoms on Sept 13, 2011 19:52:17 GMT -5
Wow, we are really lucky with Kazi...she eats whatever you put in front of her. Period. Then she heads to Dante's bowl for his left overs.....we have to keep her back to give him a chance to eat all of his meal. What little he leaves for her she eats. Period. And then she goes looking for more....definately no feeding issues with her. Now Dante....well he has gotten better since Kazi came to live with him. He eats at the same time as her, and he knows he has to got on it, or else she will. lol
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Post by Lisa on Sept 13, 2011 21:25:03 GMT -5
Kazi and Asha behave like identical twins! We have no eating issues with Asha. She wolfs her food in seconds and goes after Gino's. He definitely eats better after her arrival..but he is still a moody boy.
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Post by hooligan on Sept 14, 2011 9:06:03 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Sounds as if signing up for yoga and getting a second (hungry) dog would help solve Jack the Brat's eating problems. Don't know that I'm up for this. LOL.
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Post by dobermoms on Sept 14, 2011 20:10:32 GMT -5
hahaha....we will lend you Kazi for a couple of weeks.....perhaps when she is in heat? ?
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Post by Lisa on Sept 14, 2011 20:33:14 GMT -5
Dyanne and Barbara you cracked me up! Renting Kazi sounds like a good idea... LOL! ...after all I enjoy my yoga and two non-stop playing Dobermans
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Post by hooligan on Sept 16, 2011 9:49:30 GMT -5
Hah! I asked Jack, and he said that yes, he will definitely eat like a horse if it means having Kazi to play with!
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